Thursday, 10 June 2010

Would the Cumbria massacre have happened without the Firearms Acts?

Following on from the horrific events in Cumbria, it was completely predictable that statist politicians such as John Pugh and Chris Williamson would come out of the woodwork to advocate yet more bans on lawful firearms ownership. Naturally they fail to provide any evidence that any further gun bans will reduce the likelihood of the next massacre, because there is no such evidence. People who want to commit murder will do so, whatever the law says. Certainly Derrick Bird's actions appear at this point to have been premeditated. If he hadn't used legally owned guns to do what he did, he'd have used firearms bought on the black market – and black market guns are easier to acquire than legal ones these days, especially if you want something that's currently prohibited.

The 1988 and 1997 Firearms Acts were sold as being intended to prevent future atrocities such as happened in Hungerford and Dunblane. They have clearly not had that effect, so what makes anyone think that further bans will improve the situation? The only obvious effect current legislation had on the outcome of the Cumbria massacre was to ensure that Bird's victims were all unarmed and therefore easy targets. If only one of the random people who crossed Bird's path on that day had been armed, they would have been in with a chance of stopping him, or at least slowing him down. A few decades ago this would have been more likely, as the gun laws were more laid back then.

But there's one more thing about this event that I've been wondering about – did Bird just suddenly snap or did he feel himself deteriorating over time, as his problems gradually started to get on top of him? There is a story that he tried to get himself admitted to a mental hospital just a day or two before the massacre, but was turned away – I don't know if that's true or not. But if it was a gradual process, did he seek help earlier? If not, why not? Could he have been deterred from seeking professional help by the 1997 Firearms (Amendment) Act? To see what I mean by this, pop along to the Merseyside Police website and download either a Form 101 (application for a Firearm Certificate) or a Form 103 (application for a Shotgun Certificate) and read Section 16. It reads “I hereby give permission for the police to approach my GP to obtain factual details of my medical history.” It's something that was added to the form as a result of the 1997 Act. That on it's own is enough to deter any licensed gun owner from seeing his doctor if he starts suffering from any emotional or psychological problems – he'd be scared that the fact that he's being treated for depression or whatever would get back to the police and that they'd use it as an excuse to revoke his FAC or SGC. Did this fact deter Bird from seeking help before it was too late? I don't know, we'll probably never know. Would a councelling or therapy have helped to prevent him going off the rails? Again, I don't know and we'll probably never know. It's not like psychology is an exact science.

But what does seem obvious to me is that clause in our draconian gun laws actually increases the risk of licensed gun owners developing problems in the future – probably not by very much but the possibility's there. Something to think about.

11 comments:

Kevin Boatang said...

Possibly the worst conclusion on gun legislation I have read so far.

Man snapped, end of.

Table Bear said...

Man kills 9 using bus.

http://www.instablogs.com/outer_permalink.php?p=china-man-stabs-colleague-then-kills-9-with-bus

Man kills 8 using knife.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article7072238.ece

Josephine said...

"Naturally they fail to provide any evidence that any further gun bans will reduce the likelihood of the next massacre, because there is no such evidence."

For some things you don't need evidence, only logic. Guns are for killing. The more guns, the more kills. It's not like guns are multifunctional; you can't use them for peeling apples for example.

"If he hadn't used legally owned guns to do what he did, he'd have used firearms bought on the black market – and black market guns are easier to acquire than legal ones these days"

That's so funny because that's exactly what is used as an argument to keep tolerating drug use here in the Netherlands. The only difference is that you can't kill people with pot. As far as guns go, surely people can acquire guns on the black market - but less people will acquire guns from anywhere (black of legal market) if it's prohibited by law. Those who acquire them on the black market will then be criminals, and call me gullible but I believe the majority of the people are no criminals but will stick to the law rather than breaking it.

"If only one of the random people who crossed Bird's path on that day had been armed, they would have been in with a chance of stopping him, or at least slowing him down."

By saying this you suggest that guns make the world a safer place. That's nuts. Guns are for killing. If they had been banned long ago, there wouldn't have been a massacre in the first place.

You can't make the world a safer place by spreading guns. If arms made the world a better place, we'd all be better off having nuclear weapons. When half the world population is gone, we'll then be able to say: "hey, he killed hundreds of thousands of our people, but at least we stopped him - by killing him and hundreds of thousands of his people."

No. Guns do not make the world a safer place. At all. All guns should be banned.

Citizen Stuart said...

Kevin: First, it's a speculation, not a conclusion, which I think the title and text make perfectly clear. Second, I'd be interested in your reasoning.

Josephine: If guns in the hands of peaceful people don't make the environment safer, please explain to me why those American states that have liberalised their gun laws (especially in relation to concealed carry) have tended to experience a drop in violent crime. I take it that you're familiar with the Lott study? If not, this is probably a good place to start: http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/. Second, if guns have no other use than killing, please explain to me how it is that millions of people all over the world own guns without harming anyone?

Josephine said...

I have read the Lott study and I have an explanation.

Guns making the world a safer place (or the "drop in violent crime") is only a consequence of other people possessing guns. So it's a spiral. If there were no guns to commit violent crimes with in the first place, we wouldn't be needing guns to defend ourselves.

Rape can be prevented in many ways. There are lots of (aggressive) martial arts to choose and learn, and if you really want to you could kill someone with anything, from a piece of wood to a string of rope.

As for the black market; allowing people to have guns is dealing with the symptom, and not with the black market itself. To make guns legal for this reason would imply the government is absolutely incapable of dealing with and ridding themselves (and us) of those markets. That's utter nonsense as many of these black markets origin in their own factories (or in those of governments of other countries).

And of course people can argue this by saying "but you can kill someone with a knife as well, then should we ban all knives"? To refute the argument right now; no, we shouldn't ban all knives because they serve many purposes (like peeling an apple!), and are not primarily made for killing. But there is a distinct difference between an ordinary kitchen knife and some others that are in circulation. We simply need to separate the one from the other, and trust people not to use knives for other than peaceful purposes. (Besides, asking if knives should be banned pretty much equals the question if our hands should be chopped off, as they could - but are not primarily made to - kill as well.)

Last but not least: Guns are destructive devices, primarily made for killing (not for scaring people off). Instead of walking around carrying guns, and killing one another, we should stick together and raise a fist at the governments allowing continuance of those black markets. We're not being taken care of as we should.

P.S. Besides, the Lott study is backed up by FBI statistics, and if there's one government body I don't trust it's the FBI. Neither should you.

Inform yourself!

Table Bear said...

"All guns should be banned."

What about those who do not wish to purchase meat in a super market?


"Guns are for killing."


What about a finely tuned .22 target pistol used in Olympic disciplines?


"Rape can be prevented in many ways. There are lots of (aggressive) martial arts to choose and learn"

Like this 89 year old women should have done instead..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3jURuXjjJ8


"We're not being taken care of as we should."

... Taken care of?

I don't think you have any idea just how easy it is to construct a firearm. Type in "zip gun" on just You tube alone. If you think drugs are hard to remove from society, try removing pieces of tube and nails..

There's two principles involved in making a firearm - 1. Hold a cartridge 2. Strike the back of the cartridge. What about the cartridge? Many tools in various industries use cartridges identical to those used in ammunition. Or should government jackboots go door to door arresting people with nail guns and other powder actuated tools?

jackveronic said...

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Kevin Boatang said...

You want to hear mine?

Ok.

The Left argue that guns exist, therefore things like this happen. Ban all guns.

Total rubbish.

You are arguing that guns are largely banned, therefore things like this happen. Allow all guns.

Draconian gun laws cause legal gun owners to turn into nutjob mass murderers?

Total rubbish.

At the least the Left's view has some basis in logic, no matter how rubbish and wrong.

Gun laws have no caused anything at all in this instance.

The guy owned a gun legally. There is no link, logical or not, to his mental issues and the laws on firearms. Simple as that.

He owned a couple of guns, when nutto, shot a load of people. It's awful, it's very sad, but it wasn't caused by some weird affect caused by him owning a gun in a land of draconian gun laws.

Therefore your conclusion (sorry, ponder) is utter bollocks.

Kevin Boatang said...

Oh and by the way, this article once again demonstrates the LPUKs frankly bizarre obsession with guns and gun ownership.

A tiny tiny piece of libertarian thought.

All it does is make you look like a bunch of pricks that dress in khaki, are in the TA and go paintballing every week whislt reading 'gun carrying babes'.

In short - it makes you look like a bunch of sad right wingers who like shooting things.

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